It seems that sometimes our feelings and human understanding of life, ourselves, and God can get in the way of letting God be God. I follow the JesusCreed blog some, and it seems that many of those who comment seem to place their thoughts and understanding over God's word. I believe in the clarity of Scipture. Not that we will understand everything in the Word, but that there is a sense in which we can understand what God is telling us about himself. The question is, will we believe it. Should we accept the things that we can't understand, or reject them and reconstruct our Bibles to fit our understanding? The following comment seems to be a weighty argument for the latter.
"Rick, there are questions that we won’t get an answer for but those shouldn’t be about a flexible definition for good, justice, mercy or other things God calls us to be and has revealed himself to be in Christ. It is a lazy position to say “I guess we’ll never understand in our finite humanness how Jesus can call us to mercy, cry, “Father forgive them…” and justify the mass destruction of non-combatant men, women, babies and livestock.” These are clearly incompatible. John and James want to call trouble down on a village – very O.T. – and Jesus says, “No. Not my way.” Is it his way or isn’t it his way? Do we worship a god with a personality disorder?
These are fair questions by new and not yet believers in my community that must be wrestled with and not disrespected with by an answer that “God’s ways are just higher than our ways…” Killing babies isn’t higher."
Asking the tough questions of life is certainly a must if we are going to grow. However, at some level, we are "pieces of clay" and not "the potter". Human pride will always look for wrong in the creator God.
So what is the answer here? Is the God of the OT not really God? Does he have a personality disorder? Is the Jesus in Revelation so different from the God of the OT?
Marcion of Sinope certainly didn't think so. His inability to reconcile the Jewish god with the person of Jesus led to his excommunication and branding as one of the first reknown church heretics. He proposed that the god of the OT, or the Demiurge, created the physical universe. This lesser god was angry, jealous, and intent on punishing man for his sins. Jesus on the other hand was sent by the True God, the Heavenly Father, to rescue man from the Demiurge. Naturally, he rejected scripture that didn't support his dualistic philosophy and is recognized as one of the first to propose a canon for scripture.
ReplyDeleteAlthough ancient, this discussion seems fresh with every generation and should lead to some good discussion. As one who wrestles with these questions more and more, I'm very interested in seeing where this goes. good post.
Tough questions indeed. Although we are in good company. David is said the be a man after God's own heart and as I read the Psalms he also struggled with questions about Gods ways and presence. As I hear questions like these presented by people I talk to or books I read,my mind goes to the event in the garden where Adam and Eve are presented with a question "did God really say...?" and to Jesus quote "the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." Could it be that our enemy is trying to plant a seed of doubt about God in individuals minds with questions of this nature?
ReplyDeleteAnymore, as I read the OT I see a God who is constantly calling out to people and warning them and holding off judgement as long as possible. I also see people who "blindly" follow his lead - they don't know how the ending will be but they build arc's, fight armies with torches and trumpets, go to unknown lands, marry prostitutes and so on. I have no doubt that they were asking a lot of questions though.
All that to say that in my journey so far my PERSPECTIVE of how I see God has changed. I grew up knowing a lot of knowledge about the God of Bible but I'm finding out how little I knew/know Him.
I agree, people want and deserve more than just a pat answer about Gods ways being higher than our ways but I think it takes a touch of blind acceptance (faith) and a lot of asking God to reveal Himself to us and not letting our doubts and questions be the foundation of our relationship with God but instead the foundation of the gospel, and I also agree that comes with asking some tough questions...but then someone could say that's just my simple minded opinion. -Keith
Welcome to the League Keith, I always took you for a fool, and not just for marrying my sister:) If I read Keith and Fitzy correctly, I think they are both saying the same thing. Fitzy, I was about to qualify your loaded question that asked 'Should we accept the things that we can't understand, or reject them and reconstruct our Bibles to fit our understanding?' when I read Keith's comment which forced me to pause and consider Satan's role in all this. As one who finds more questions than answers, I need to be very cautious in my pursuit of understanding. But really, when Satan approached Eve with "Did God really say...?" the answer was "No, He didn't". We need to be careful with making either/or statements that end with statements like 'or rejecting them and reconstruct our Bibles to fit our understanding.' Though some may be guilty of doing this, it is my opinion that many are easing tension not by rejecting it, but rather by considering fresh perspectives on Scripture without disregarding it as God's word. Sometimes when we ask the question, 'Did God really say...?' the answer is 'No' and we've been wrong all along. I think we've all experienced this to some extent. So it's not about restructure Scripture to better fit our understanding, but rather restructure our understanding of Scripture to better fit God's revelation of Himself. I know I'm opening myself up to criticism here.
ReplyDeleteI think 'considering fresh perspectives on Scripture' is an essential thing to do! I try to approach every text that I teach or preach with that sort of a mindset (which is the reason for my thoughts concerning spiritual gifts), because no matter how much I try to block it out, I am still going to bring my clouded mind of my past notions and traditions to the text. As much as I can keep that out of it, I think I will get closer to the true meaning!
ReplyDeleteHowever, with that said, there does come a point where language is language, words are words, and God has chosen to communicate through them. Words can only mean so many things. And to the degree that the text is plainly saying something concerning God, I don't think we can "reconstruct" it.
I accept your caution about the either/or statement. I didn't mean to say that anyone that struggles with this or has a different opinion is necessarily reconstructing the text (although some do, as you said). But once again, my concern is with what the text says, and whether or not we will believe what the language is clearly communicating.
Keith, I appreciated your perspective about God in the OT. So many times I think people focus on his judgment and wrath that was revealed, and forget about his longsuffering that so permeates the OT. I just finished teaching through Jonah (amazing book by the way), and after reading the horrific things that the Assyrians did, God was longsuffering in showing mercy to the Ninevites. Just as he showed mercy to us as fallen sinners!
I guess it better to be taken as a fool than a loof, but thanks for the welcome Todd.
ReplyDeleteJust for clarification...when I used the phrase "did God really say...?" I was not referring to the specific incident (although as I read your response, Todd, I agree with where you went with it) but I was referencing an attitude that would doubt God's goodness. As far as I can gather from the pre-fall account God was nothing but good (face it he gave man a naked woman - how good is that? :)) Sorry...where was I...Oh, yes God was nothing but good yet he gave us one restriction and the evil one took that one thing and created fertile grounds for us to doubt God's goodness which we know the rest of the story. Which brings us to the statement that Fitsy posed: "These are fair questions by new and not yet believers in my community that must be wrestled with and not disrespected with by an answer that “God’s ways are just higher than our ways…” Killing babies isn’t higher."
So,(apart from the Spirits work) how do we help these people wrestle with these hard questions when we might be wrestling a bit ourselves? and even if we're not necessarily wrestling ourselves how can we help these people see past their doubts? Can we? Interested in your thoughts.
Just a quick clarification, Keith, that statement was a comment someone else made on another blog. I didn't write that, but was quoting someone else.
ReplyDeleteFitzsy
Well, I should really read these things earlier in the day. Thanks for clarifying.
ReplyDeleteKeith
To wrap this up, I think that our understanding of God's love, holiness, justice, righteousness, grace.... has to start with the cross. That is the clearest picture of where God's holiness and wrath are reconciled with his love. He was both just in his punishment of the sins of the world, and he was loving in his giving his son as the substitution for us.
ReplyDeleteWherever we go from there, that is where we have to start. The Canaanite genocide is a difficult subject, but we have to understand that God gave them 400 years to repent, and we must understand the massive gap between God's perfection and man's sin. He would not be a good God if he did not punish sin. He would be like a judge that looks at a convicted rapist, and says, "it's ok, you're free." Is that loving or just? Absolutely not!
We cannot emphasize his holiness to the exclusion of his love, and we cannot (as is the trend today) say that "love wins" and exclude God's holiness and wrath against sin.
Just something to think about when wrestling with this issue! And, I also want to say, that there is a sense in which we have no right to question God at all. Sure, we want to understand him, and who he is, and why he does what he does, but never in an arrogant, "answer me" kind of way. Rom. 9:20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God?
We can be caring and understanding with people who are wrestling with this, but we must lead them to a place of letting God be God.
Fitzsy