Well, the profound fools have been failing their readership, especially this fool. However, hopefully there will still be someone that will glance at this and offer some profound comments, and the "League" will come back from our hiatus!
I have recently being doing some study on a topic that is somewhat controversial. I have always been taught that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to believers, but today, some of those in the lists in the NT are no longer needed and are therefore no longer being exercised. For example, the gift of prophecy, tongues with interpretation, healing, etc. But if this is the case, shouldn't there be explicit teaching in the NT that is evidence to the ceasing of these gifts?
The central passage that has always been given to me is I Cor. 13:9-12, where Paul is focusing his treatment of spiritual gifts on what is the most important thing, that is love. In the text, he says that prophecies, tongues and knowledge will pass away, but love will not. So the important question is, when will prophecies, tongues and knowledge pass away? The answer in the text is "when that which is perfect is come". What is this referring to? The completion of the NT canon? While this has been my previous answer, after really being honest with the text and letting it speak for itself, I think this is very unlikely. Consider the "then" statements in the text referring back to the coming of the "perfect". "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known." Face to face? Knowing fully? Do these sound like experiences that we have now with the complete NT? I don't think so. "The perfect coming, face to face, and knowing fully" really sounds a lot like Christ's return, implying that these gifts will continue until then.
And this is the only text that I know of that even comes close to a statement of these gifts ceasing, and even this one, when examined more closely, implies just the opposite!!!
So I have to ask myself, have the gifts of prophecy and tongues really ceased, or was I making the text say something that it doesn't to fit my own agenda? Have I been bound by my own presuppositions and traditions, rather than allowing the Bible to dictate my beliefs? Is there some sense in which the gift of prophecy and tongues could be used to edify the body today?
While the "speaking in tongues" and "prophecy" that has been practiced by the majority of my Charismatic brothers is, from my estimation, a far cry from Biblical, is there a correct way to exercise these gifts today? Maybe our understanding of prophecy in the NT has been shaped too much by OT prophey and has been too narrow? (I plan on continuing this discussion in further posts, with propositions as to how these gifts could function today in a practical, non-Benny Hinn kind of way!)
So, for discussion, do you agree with my interpration of I Cor. 13, and if not, what is the alternative? Do we have something to learn from our brothers and sisters who have experience using these gifts? Does the exercise of these gifts diminish the sufficiency of Scripture?
Doesn't the fact that at the time Paul wrote this the NT hadn't been finished yet affect your interpretation? Sounds to me like the suggested interpretation is a stretch. Seems like you are relying on this one passage alone as a launching point for this theory when, studied out in context of the scripture as a whole (and considering the fact that we have the completed Word) it seems obvious that these gifts have served their purpose and have indeed ceased.
ReplyDeleteI don't verify my faith in the exercising of a gift, I verify it by faith in the Word of God.
Also, referring to the word "perfect" being used in the passage. . .does not David (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) refer to God's law as "perfect"? That was before it was even complete.
Kind of just blurting stuff out here. Don't have a bunch of time right now to do a study on it. Just throwing things out there off the top of my head.
Interesting rabbit trail though: How does this discussion tie into all the things going on the the Islamic Republic right now? People are accepting Christ, and many are claiming to have been led to Him or to someone who has shared the truth with them via dreams and visions. I don't have a problem believing this personally. The testimonies I have heard sound legit. Just wondering if this ties in at all?
Smitty
The interpretation actually tracks well with me. I see nothing in the text that would make me think it is saying anything different. The alternate interpretation which you seem to be arguing against seems to me to be the stretch. Certainly the completion Paul was referring to (off-handed at that, he's not even talking about the use of gifts here) was not that of scripture. If so, when did the gifts formally stop? When John put down his pen? When his Revelation reached the 7 churches? After the death of the last apostle? After canonization? 1611? It's hard to pinpoint the cessation of something being linked directly to an event that only arbitrarily exists. I'd be interested in smitty expounding a bit on his statement on the obviousness of certain gifts serving their purpose and therefore disappearing. Obvious from scripture or obvious from personal experience? I'll agree to the second. Admittingly, my reason for tending towards cessationalism is more materialistic than theological. It's based on my experience. Sort of like my opinion on ETs. Though I'd love to see one, I haven't. And though I'm eager to listen to those who have, I'm not close enough to anyone who has to accept his experience as my own. But that doesn't mean they don't (can't) exist. I have no problem accepting the possibility that God still works through tongues, though I'm initially skeptical.
ReplyDeleteOne final thought, the original question in the post asks, 'shouldn't there be explicit teaching in the NT that is evidence to the ceasing of these gifts?' I can see why you'd look for one, but I don't think it follows that there should be one. These are gifts given by the Spirit, not practices carried out by His people. If God decides to stop giving, I don't think he needs release a memo.
Smitty - I wasn't giving a full treatment of the subject in my post. The reason that I focused on that text is because it is leaned on so heavily by many cessationists.
ReplyDeleteKrook - God certainly doesn't need to release a memo. But in the context of teaching the church, should we say that he has released a memo, when we don't know that he has. If I teach my church that they have ceased, is it in the text, or am I just giving my expert opinion:)
I definitely share your skepticism. However, gifts explained and obviously present in the NT are different than ET's:) Even if they seem as odd to us Baptists! I just don't know that we can say from the text that they have definitely ceased. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but I don't think we can say one way or the other.
If I may jump into the discussion. I will try to write as manly as I can since this is not Cherie' but her husband Keith - Krooks in-law. 1)I would also agree with Fritzy's interpretation. As to whether "the perfect" is specifically referring to Jesus or as one version states "time of perfection comes" either way it appears to be referring to the time when Jesus is ruling and reigning and then we will not need the prophecies or healings and our knowledge will be complete.
ReplyDeleteAs to the 2nd discussion question...In chapter 12 the context of spiritual gifts is in the fact that the body is made up of many parts that have different gifts, and then he moves into chapter 13 where he says (paraphrased) that love is the greatest of them all or "a more excellent way". so getting back to the question...I say yes we can learn from our brothers and sisters who experience them even though I too can be skeptical with todays western Christianities fascination with them. All too often I believe we can be seeking heaven here on earth and it be all about us (our pain-free life [healings], our desire to know what the future holds [prophecies]) instead of all about God's glory. As I read about Muslims and visions, people being healed and even brought back to life in India I have to believe that the gifts still exist. Hopefully that came across in love. So even if it is learning how to love those we may disagree with or not understand, we can always learn and benefit from.
As to the 3rd discussion question...Jesus says in John 5:39: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me." Would it not be that if these gifts are revealing God's glory just as His word reveals God's glory then I would suggest that No it does not diminish the sufficiency but may even enhance it.
Just another "fool's" thoughts
Remember that in this whole text Paul is correcting the Corinthians on the misuse of the gift of tongues, and their motives in coveting this specific gift. This is why he says, "if I speak with tongues of men and angels and have not love (which is the greatest of all the gifts), I am as a tinkling cymbal, or as sounding brass". Tongues was not a gift to be coveted (1) because of its ranking as the least in importance in any listing its found in with other spiritual gifts, and (2) because of the very fact that this gift would indeed cease. Pay attention to this breakdown of the passage you were referring to in your post Fitzy. I don't know who to give credit to for this research, but it is a very fair and honest treatment of the passage you referred to above. . . .
ReplyDelete"If Christians would take seriously, within context, all of the teaching about tongues in 1 Corinthians, they could not fail to see that tongues-speaking would cease. Paul writes, “Charity (love) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” (13:8). There will always be the need for love, therefore love will never drop off. But when the canon of Scripture is made “perfect” (or complete), there will be no further revelation from God, neither in predictive prophecy nor in divinely revealed knowledge other than prophecy. The gifts of “prophecy” and “knowledge” will be entirely unnecessary with the completion of the Scriptures. And “if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18).
Paul acknowledged the incomplete nature of the Scriptures in his day when he said, “For we know in part, and we prophecy in part” (13:9), or more literally from the Greek, “For in part we are knowing, and in part we are prophesying.” Then he adds, “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (13:10). The word perfect is in the neuter gender, and therefore refers to the perfect (finished or completed) Word of God. If the word perfect referred to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. Therefore, the sign gifts were “done away” (rendered inoperative) with the completion of the New Testament."
Also consider, why would Paul need to mention that these gifts would ever cease at all if indeed the "perfect" time was when Christ comes and we believers are gone anyway? Stop reading for a sec and think about that. What would be the point in telling us they are going to stop at some point?
-Smitty
(see next post for conclusion. . . .ran out of room)
From what I can tell, the gift of tongues was given for two reasons; and I will end my rebutle with this:
ReplyDeleteFirst, to communicate the Gospel message. With unmistakable clarity Paul says, “Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not . . . ” (1 Corinthians 14:22). The word “sign” (Gr. semeion) in the New Testament is often associated with the conveying of a Divinely-given message to unbelievers. This is the emphasis in John 20:30, 31 where we read, “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.” The signs (miracles) were never performed without purpose, but because of the message they communicated.
The true function of the gift of tongues is “for a sign . . . to them that believe not.” To exercise the gift when unbelievers were not present would be exercising the gift above the purpose for which it was given. The gifts were never given for the self-satisfaction or self-glory of the recipients. The one upon whom the gift was bestowed was merely an instrument through whom God wanted to communicate His message.
Second, to confirm the Gospel message. It was not merely a communicating sign but a confirmatory sign as well. When the Apostles used the gift of tongues it was because they did not have what you and I have today, the completed Word of God, God’s full and final revelation to man. When they went about preaching the Gospel, their message was confirmed by the exercise of the sign gifts. Tongues-speaking vindicated both the message and the messenger. “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds” (2 Corinthians 12:12). If one could find an Apostle living today who saw the bodily-resurrected Lord Jesus, he would not be exercising the sign gifts because he would have what you and I have, and what Peter, Paul and John did not have, the completed written Word of God. Now that we have the Scriptures we do not need miracles to confirm God’s message.
I'm with krook. I am NOT saying that the gift couldn't be used today. After all, it is the Spirit that bestows this gift, and He can use it if He wishes.
-Smitty
hmmmmm. everyone is referencing context, but no one is saying the same thing. Maybe we should consider the contexts of our contexts. I must admit. I'm just not seeing it. Is Paul's purpose here correcting the Corinthians on their use of tongues or is he addressing spiritual gifts in general? Are we in this case isolating tongues because the text demands it, or because we've been conditioned to do so? Is love really the answer for a misuse of tongues, or more generally, is it an answer for the chaos and disorder we find in the Corinthian church, of which the misuse of tongues and other spiritual gifts were a part of? What about the other gifts mentioned in 'context'? Since healers aren't mentioned as one of the gifts that cease in chapter 13 should we be looking for more healers in our churches today? Again, I wonder, when was the canon complete? When did the recipients of Scripture realize it was complete? Does the said completion of Scripture really allow us to see anything fully? No need for God to speak anymore? Really? Don't we still echo Paul's sentiments today that, though with our trusty leather-bound Bibles in hand, we know in part, we prophecy in part, and we look forward to a fulfillment of our knowledge some day'? Does the lack of masculine gender negate all possible meanings except a reference to scripture? Couldn't Paul be speaking just of completion, the fulfillment of God's plan, which happens to culminate in the return of Christ, which by the way was a theme in most of Paul's writing? Isolating a doctrine on tongues from this passage? I just don't see it. but what do I know. Sometimes I think we look for too much.
ReplyDeleteWe're not isolating a doctrine on tongues from this passage, . . . .this is just the subject among many that we happen to be talking about from this passage. The whole passage isn't isolating tongues, but a portion of it certainly is. Don't over-think it. Josh posed a question: "Did these gifts really pass away? Does the text definitively say so or not?" (paraphrase). He then asked if we "agreed with the interpretation?", of which krook said "yes", and others agreed with certain points. At this point I dug a little deeper and looked at the text word for word, and in context, and happened to disagree. Is this enough evidence? In my mind it is. Maybe we should ask ourselves "when is the evidence in the text ever enough?" (a hint of rhetoric/sarcasm here).
ReplyDeleteKrook, I think its safe to say that Paul is dealing with spiritual gifts in general here. During which, Paul doesn't say that love is the answer for the misuse of tongues. He simply says to the Corinthians that "love" is to be coveted more than tongues, for it shall not cease.
Cmon' man! You asked the question "does the completion of scripture really allow us to see anything fully?" Of course! Look at the clarification on all sorts of subjects that we are recipients of being on the receiving end of the completed Scriptures. What was once a mystery, we see clearly now.
You also asked "no need for God to speak anymore?", as if that were being implied (I know you pretty well by now, so I know you are being more facetious than serious). Of course God needs to speak today. But you know that His medium is through His Word.
Pretty robust discussion to say the least. How much deeper should we dig here? Do we and our readership have enough facts to draw a conclusion? Let us know.
Smitty
better if I would have phrased it, does the completion of scripture allow us to see anything with the clarity Paul speaks of?
ReplyDelete"Remember that in this whole text Paul is correcting the Corinthians on the misuse of the gift of tongues, and their motives in coveting this specific gift." -- sounded to me as if you were drawing conclusions about tongues isolating it from the other gifts discussed in the previous chapter. my bad.
As far as readership is concerned. I don't think we have any. so dig til you're satisfied.
The readership is there, we just need to gain their trust again! A little more posting will do that!
ReplyDeleteAbout I Cor. 13, I think it is safe to say that this is a shaky text to lean on for proof of cessation, at best. Personally, I cannot see in the text indication that "the perfect" is referring to the completed canon. It is too much of a stretch. So if I am going to be convinced to teach my church that the gifts have indeed ceased, it will have to be from some other angle.
I was reading from John MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos" a bit this morning and the accounts of the abuse of the gifts are mind boggling. However, while it scares me a bit, I think I am leaning towards the position of "open, but cautious". If we do believe in sola scriptura, then we can't add cessation of gifts if it is not clearly in the text. Teaching through books of the Bible has forced me into these topics, and I never dreamed that I would be writing from the perspective that I am. Sola Scriptura, when it is for real, doesn't allow you to fit into a mold or tradition very easily. I find myself morphing into a weird combination of Baptist, Calvinistic, Charismatic, etc.:) It is incredibly freeing and fulfilling, at least for me, to let God speak through his word, and believe it. Not to add to it, or skip any of it. No matter the perceived consequences that I think will be damaging. God is smarter than me!
Fitzsy
Whole hearted Amen on sola scripture! Let me ask you a question based on what you said. Is there enough evidence in the text to suggest they haven't ceased?
ReplyDeleteThe other question is, what is your definition of tongues? What is Biblical tongues? Is it different than the charismatic tongues of today? What would be their use or purpose in the church today?
Smitty